The Jazz Butcher versus Max Eider... (a slight return)
In a tiny upstairs room above the Packhorse Public house in Leeds, two forty something gentlemen are seated. While one rhythmically strums a Fender Telecaster the other stretchers spidery fingers over a beautiful Gretsch. The Telecaster player introduces them as Pat Fish and Max Eider and they play songs from Bath of Bacon... and they play songs from A Scandal in Bohemia... and they play songs from Distressed Gentelfolk and Waiting for the Love Bus and in fact they play until the glass collector tells them to stop! After the show we retreat to a labyrinth of a house inhabited by a Leeds based 4 piece band called Saab 77.
Where and when did you two meet and how did you come together as a musical partnership?
Pat: Can I answer that?
Max: You certainly can.
Pat: Cos I remember it really well, cos like we was at college together but before he came to college, which would make it the summer of 1977 I reckon.
Max: Yes it would.
Pat: The summer of 1977, me and my mate John Silver who I was in a group with went to a pub in Wimbledon where John lived, on the common and it was getting on about half past ten at night, it was dark and it was summer and we were outside and John just introduced me to Max at that point. He said "oh, this is a bloke I used to go to school with and he's a bit of a musician blah de blah" and we met.
Seconds after that John Silver sat down on Wimbledon Common in a huge dog turd... (laughs from all) and as he got up he issued a line that I've never forgotten, he just went "Well I used to love it, but its all over me" and that's, as far as I'm aware the first night we met.
Max: You could well be right, I've absolutely no recollection of that.
Pat: It's before you came up to college... (adopts upper class speech-Ed)
Max: Hmm, hmm
Pat: Yes, yes just a young whipper snapper from sarf London... (adopts mock cockney accent-Ed)
Max: Yeah, college, college.
Pat: Yeah, that's when we got to know each other.
Bath Of Bacon... (debut album) was put together were you both in employment, or were both still at college? when did you turn professional?
Max: ha, ha (breaks into fits of laughter-Ed) (Interrupts)
if that's the right word.
Pat: You've heard the record!
Max: I never consciously turned professional. Made a living from it then.
Max: There have been times when it's been my main source of income. But err it's a very different thing really (light laughter from all-Ed) I was just so seriously broke after we left university Pat disappeared up to Northampton and I was still living near Oxford and he wrote these songs for the Bath of Bacon LP.
Pat: But I can remember, I had a job at a Lawyers in Northampton and it was too expensive for the real lawyers to go to London to do the court cases cos their time costs the earth right, so they used to send fuckwit instead and I can remember in the summer of '82 you (points to Max) were definitely in London because I can remember meeting up with you going down to them cases and that
Max: Oh, right, I must have gone back to London by then?
Pat: He was in Fulham weren't you?
Max: Errrrr, West Kensington, no Fulham, Fulham your absolutely right, I don't think there is much point talking to me because I can't fucking (fits of laughter from all-Ed) remember a single fucking thing about it, and this is what our conversations are like. When we have these conversations, he says "no, no you weren't doing that, you were doing that," he's always right.
Pat: And yet he won't listen to me when I suggest something like, "oh you don't wanna do that, you wanna do that" he won't listen but he's quite right, but yeah, you had all kinds of jobs. You were working at City Bank for a while you were running the Sudan for a while if I remember rightly?.
Max: That's right.
Pat: Here's this bloke in off the street, out of fucking college and this big American Bank have got him like running the Sudan, I was well impressed, all I ever got was trying to shut down dodgy companies who ripped everybody off!
Max: They defaulted though, Sudan after about six months.
Pat: You should have sent them to me mate, I'd have sorted them out, ah you should have sent them to me.
Max: That was the end of my banking career.
Pat: I'd have sent the bailiffs round mate, see that pile of earth?, we're having that
Max: Poor old fucking Sudan.
So how did you manage to scoop a (relatively) famous person to drum on your first single?
Pat: You mean Elvis? yeah well, we sort of oh! You mean Kevin (Haskins)
I guess Peter (Murphy) and to a lesser degree Daniel(Ash) were more famous than David (J) and Kevin at that point but I guess it was still a big scoop, was it?
Pat: It just sort of happened really, Kev would hang around. When I got up to Northampton you know it's not a big town.
The point I was trying to make was, him (Kevin), and later David's (J) involvement probably brought you a wider audience would that be fair?
Pat: I think especially Dave, yeah, I think when Dave joined we didn't really notice cos we'd got used to him, he was already around and like me & Max had done gigs opening for him and got to know him a little bit, been round his house that sort of thing and he was... and then there was like a period after that little tour at the end of '83 Dave was out with Steve Musgrove on bass and we doing the opening act and initially all that happened out of that was that we nicked Steve Musgrove to play bass for us and that went on for about three months and in a move that still leaves me gasping, I don't quite understand what happened, Dave replaced his nicked bass player and got him kicked out of the JBC (Jazz Butcher Conspiracy- as the band later became known) and he came in instead and we just used him. You know he was just a mate and he was around.
Max: Then he turned up at your house and demanded to join the band basically.
Pat: It wasn't that far off yeah, I mean he's done this, you were not the only band he's ever done this to, those lads down in Brighton called errrm..
Max: But he was at a loose end at the time.
Pat: Well yes, Bauhaus had just gone belly up and like he didn't know what to do.
It seemed like the JBC had become a refuge for ex-Bauhaus members?
Pat: I think what was going on was by the end of Bauhaus they probably weren't enjoying themselves very much and they saw these young blokes with no money who were having a laugh and they thought "is that done?" so they probably just.. they were just social you know we were just around, and yeah we were totally used to Dave by the time he came in the group you know it was a bit good, oh! Look we got a proper bass player now but it didn't really dawn on us like what other people had noticed, you know but then yeah you'd start seeing like Smash Hits going like Bauhaus bloke Dave J has joined this group, so yeah there's no doubt it did us some good, no doubt at all.
How did the Glass deal come about?
Pat: 12th of June 1982!
Max: He's like a computer!
Pat: We played our first gig at The Black Lion (Northampton -Ed) supporting a band called "Where's Lisa?" and after that gig Dave Barker showed up and we knew Barker already. We'd known him a little bit in the band we were in before with this John Silver character, I think we'd stumbled across him you know how bands are trying to get a deal, and just stayed friendly with him and he, this band "Where's Lisa?" were one of his bands, he was putting their records out and we supported them and errm straight after the gig "errm I'm coming to sign you" (adopts Dave Barker speak) that was that really so first gig and signed a contract all in the same night. So I'm looking forward to June 12 this year cos it's the 20th anniversary.
Glass seemed pretty errm, looking back now, unusual in the way that it let you release material that would normally not be used, like for instance the live tapes that were for sale through the fan club, licensing exclusive material to magazines like Zig- Zag and the 17 thing ("What a nice way to turn seventeen" a fanzine type magazine that issued a 7 hard vinyl single featuring The Jazz Butcher's take on John Cale's The Chinese Envoy) This type of promotion was quite unusual then.
Pat: Well you see Glass was not really any better than the groups on it, so anything you can do to sort of get in with another scene, get spotted
So that's what it was all for?
Pat: I think so yeah, I think they were just doing what self promotion he could, and honestly looking back you know, taking the JBC from the Black Lion in Northampton to the fucking Roxy in L.A. he didn't do a bad job did he?, for an unlikely bloke from Romford!
(laughs-all) You know if Glass had had like some twat who knew business there, cos all Dave knew was like music and Dave's old job, he used to work at Polygram doing the sleeves and I swear to God he started putting out albums just so he could do the sleeves, I swear to God and he had a band as well so that had something to so with it. But really I mean Dave just yeah its amazing what he achieved.
Would you consider the 84 Scandal line up as the first solid version of the band?
Within two years then, David (J) had gone, Felix (David's replacement) had gone and the year after that you had gone (Max)
Max: He had to go (Felix)
Pat: He had to go (Felix)
Come on then lets have it!
Pat: Well, its all about bathrooms Andy, its all about bathrooms. It was just like, I've never known a bloke like it, like you know you're not a rich band, you tour, you share rooms and you rotate and the reason you rotate more than anything is that no-one gets stuck with Graham - Felix is Graham.
Cos, like good bass player but in all other respects it was like having a stranger on the bus and where it really got bad was with the bathroom. He would disappear into the bathroom. Perhaps two and a half hours before the soundcheck and you'd go in after, your eyes would be watering, man there'd be like cosmetics everywhere and everything had been like thoroughly steamed - and like that was it basically. If you saw Graham move into the bathroom then you could just give up all bodily functions for the next couple of hours and it wore us down. There are other weird things. Once, in France I said to him shall we play D.R.I.N.K tonight and he said "ah, D.R.I.N.K, I don't think I know that one" which was alarming to me because we'd done it in Hamburg about three weeks before. He was a sod, he was a perfectly good bass player and I think we were probably quite good for him as well, I think he got better but he just wasn't around, and like it really got bad on the American tour in '86 it was like
Did he leave or was he asked to leave?
Pat: Yeah, he left.
Was he persuaded?
Pat: errm, no, I's obviously a very sensitive man.
Max: (laughing) not that fucking sensitive.
Pat: We were gonna boot him out, somehow on the last day in L.A when there were no more gigs to do, somehow his antenna's got it and he come and said look Pat, I gotta leave - so it was all sort of ... (makes gesture)
Two years later I run into him in a night club and he comes up me and goes "Hey Pat how you doing?, alright mate?, you know that Sex and Travel" ... yeah..."Sex and Travel; that means fuck off don't it.. (Max begins giddy laughter at this point-Ed) .. so I goes "yes Graham" and he goes... you think he aint gone far enough yet... don't you but no, dear god almighty... "does that mean fuck off ? "yes Graham it does.." "so like in a way that was like you and Max telling David to fuck off (all laugh)... do you know what I mean?... where do you start!
Max: He was an odd chap.
Pat: Where do you start?
Pat: Not a dangerous bone in his body, not a bad man but...
Max: No, he was a nice enough guy but not a kindred spirit really, so it was a bit odd being on the bus with him for five weeks.
Speaking of the bus, why did you jump off Max?
Max: (laughing) We had an absolutely spectacular drunken row, drinking whiskey, actually I'm drinking whiskey tonight... it was a dreadful... errr
Max: A dreadful gig wasn't it?
Pat: The opening of a night club and they just wanted a group because you have to have a group and everyone was just drinking Champagne and ignoring it..There's a tape! there's a tape!, fuck knows who's got it but I heard it one night, I couldn't believe it, you know an hour before the bust up right and Zombie Love starts and you (Max) go to the microphone, you go "right fuckers have some of this" (everyone erupts with laughter-Ed)
Max: I must have been drunk, that's part of the trouble, it's quite a late, quite a late gig and a really weird one, we'd been doing it very heavily before.
Pat: ... and they fed us shit!
Max: ... and they fed us shit!
Pat: I think this is the root of our whole falling out and basically we were totally under nourished, we were wild on scotch, we were both pissed off about pretty much the same things but for dinner... there was snow on the ground outside, it's Switzerland, it's winter and there was snow about this deep on the floor (makes depth gesture with his hand-Ed) outside and for dinner they gave us this piece of mozzarella cheese with a slice of tomato on top! "vegetarian ya?" (in mock Swiss accent) (all laugh)
Max: We were drinking like mad on that tour just going a bit mad and you know it (laughing) just got a bit too much.
Glad to be back?
Max: Yeah, we're having a great time I really am enjoying myself, I mean we sort of got back together personally quite a long time before we started doing this again.
Pat: Cos, yeah I mean there was still a Jazz Butcher band going and like we just sort of got back together as mates but like that band was still going with Dooj and Hendo and all that, pretty much as soon as we called it a day with that I think it was within a year I got that thing "oh! do you wanna go and play Majorca?, they don't know you split up" and it was the first phone number a reached for, I just thought ... well.
That was August 20 wasn't it?
Pat: It was certainly August.
I remember cos it was my birthday (the date of the gig) when you said you and Max had got back together and it was like, the first show, I remembered it because of that date, so that would have been the one.
You told me in a letter or something that you hooked back up with Max again... ..... So "Distressed Gentlefolk" was the last Jazz Butcher album (compilations aside) that Glass Records put out, did the label fold?, was that the reason you moved, or did you leave?
Pat: What happened was, I still feel a bit naughty about this cos I sort of feel if we'd stuck around maybe the label wouldn't have folded, but Dave (Barker), cos he'd had success with us to a degree and he'd got a Pastels album out and he'd got a few names...
Pat: Yes, he'd got Spacemen, he'd got Perfect Disasters, well... is it really wanky for me to say why he got Spacemen and Perfect Disaster (laughs)
Pat: Yes (laughing) but it's true!, but he fucking..and he legged Loop, he only had a staff of one in the office and that was Josh (Hampson) who formed Loop..."errr he's just pissing about (In mock Barker accent-ed) and he let that one slip through his fingers and that was in the office, but he generally got it right.
What happened was, after the bust up I fucked off to New York for a bit with my Mrs and I got a phone call about 25 January "Pat do you know you're supposed to be playing a gig" ? - it was Mike Hink my agent " you know you're supposed to be playing a gig in Bergen in Norway on the 28th"?.... I'm like, "no, Mike this is news, you know there's no band"
"Well, yeah, but..." and what it was, he'd carried on booking that '86 tour right through into fucking '87 and so me and Alex (Green - veteran of David J solo albums and one time Sinister Duck-Ed) went and just did a load of rubbish but that was completely out of the blue, that was completely unexpected... why did I get onto that? (everyone agrees that no-one knows! -Ed)
The original question was what happened to Glass?...
Pat: Thats right! (Max is in fits of laughter at this point-Ed)
Pat: Thats right!
Max: This is really good, sometimes... got part of the conversation written down....
Pat: Yeah, that's very good when you smoke as much dope as me!. There's little wheels and big wheels, they all meet up in the end... but on this tour we got as far as Paris and by now me and Alex had got something of an act, which basically in Paris consisted of playing La Mer (from Bath of Bacon) I kid you not six times, they wouldn't let us not play it and at the end of that Paris gig I went up to the dressing room and I was very excited because I'd heard there was a young woman there that I liked, English woman and I was quite excited, but before that happened Alan McGee appeared and I said "what the fuck you doing here"?. Cos I hadn't seen him for years since he used to do a sort of Living Room (the London club owned by McGee-ed) and (adopts thick scotch-McGee type accent) "I've come to sign you, you're out of contract with Glass" and I'm like "Oh! am I?" cos you see I hadn't noticed, cos I'd been doing these silly gigs in fucking Norway & shit.. errm, McGee had fucking spotted it and said "look I've come to get you" he said "There's three I've always wanted; Lawrence out of Felt, Copey and yourself " and so I said "well yeah! alright", I was flattered and I thought, wrongly, as it goes that Creation would get us more exposure, they in fact.... Dave (Barker), considering where we started from always did a better job. Alan was like "I'll double your sales (in scotch accent-ed). But what he didn't understand was, we had an international operation and right to it's dying day Creation never had a foreign office, they never had an expert who could deal with abroad, he increased our sales with Fishcoteque (Creation's first Jazz Butcher release and arguably the best JBC album-ed) but after that...
Who owns the rights to the Glass catalogue now?
Pat: errm... infamously the rights to the JBC back catalogue were bought / sold by Dave Barker I fondly imagine in a car park outside a pub in Dagenham. Two and a half thousand quid- that's four LP's, eight singles, two and a half thousand quid - the lot and he sold them to Clive Simmons of Fire (Records-ed)
You have answered the next question, it was how did the Creation deal come about?... we'll move on.
Pat: Yes, that's how I saw it, I didn't really see Glass go under cos I was abroad.
I assume that's what happened then - folded?
Pat: Yes, just ran out of money, Dave got quite ambitious he started putting out records left, right and centre in '86.
So where were you during the JBC's Creation years Max?
Max: errm... in London, I played with David, David J on a couple of albums, did a couple of tours with him, you know, apart from that just sort of working being bored (laughs)
Working at what?, what were you doing?
Max: I errr...
Within music you mean ?
Max: No, no I sort of edit stuff for broadcasters...
For T.V, radio?
Max: No it's just like booklets and web sites.
And do you still do that?
Max: Yeah (Pat leaves the room to get a beer at this point, a request for one is made by Max) yes, I mean I did do, you know I was still writing stuff and errm... and did the occasional gig on my own, didn't make any money (laughing)
There are some great songs on The Best Kisser in the World (Max's first album), I particularly like the line in Raking Up Leaves about "Jesus, friend of the poor..."
Max: Pat likes that.
Did the album sell?
Max: No, no it didn't sell, it's partly because, well one of the reasons is that the record company went bankrupt shortly after releasing the record, not directly...
Was that put out through BMG?
Max: They had distribution through BMG the company was called Bigtime.
Max: Yeah, well the guy was Canadian but the company was based in America, they had the Jazz Butcher licenses for the Glass records, that's how I got to that. It kind of just went down the tubes that record but a few copies got out and around and it's amazed me over the years...
Well I bought one! its like I said to you earlier its been one of those albums that I've been waiting for a CD re-issue for... what was it '86, '87 or something like that was it?
Max: '87 yes
I was gonna do my own copy of the disc from my original vinyl, but then I saw that Vinyl Japan had put it out so I thought no I won't, I'll get that one.
Max: Good man!
Pat: You're the kind of person that keeps us in Cheese sandwiches my friend! (laughing-all) Downloading it all now you know!...
Vinyl Japan have put out three re-issues recently (Scandal in Bohemia, Distressed Gentlefolk and the excellent compilation Cake City), were you involved in them putting your album out?, were you signed to them or was it done on the back of the Jazz Butcher thing?
Max: No, no they just offered, they just said "do you wanna do another solo record?" I thought I probably did! (laughing)*
Influences then and now, obviously there is the Lou Reed, John Cale, Kevin Ayres and Jonathan Richman songs amongst others that you have covered over the years, were they necessarily influences or did you just like the songs?
Pat: JoJo's (Richman) songs one tends to do em because they are easy to play, I feel that like the very obvious Velvets influence on him and on us, I feel it's more in common, I don't feel he particularly influences what we're about.. errm... John Cale doesn't really except to the extent of that kind of like "Clever Hostility" (adopts Cale's Welsh accent-ed) you know that one aims for and so rarely achieves. But yeah... Eno was a big influence when we kicked off I remember, I was listening to the ..you know the Eno records where he sings.
Pat: errm..that are all a bit clattery and everything is wrong sounding and it's almost like... its '74 and it's like half way between the Velvets and Punk, twice as inventive as both in some ways, I used to love those, it's one of the reasons we used to have stupid instruments a lot and stuff like that, I just used to hear him and think why?... right get all the toys out the box you know... I just bought Tiger Mountain again on CD the other day so now as well for me.
Do you neighbours still think you're a weirdo?
Max: (laughing) I would have thought so..
Pat: I had these really costy neighbours, they didn't think I was a weirdo, er "my best mate Pat, don't hit me" (adopts strange drunken accent-ed) they were sweet. I used to think they got on Ketamin you know that horse tranquilliser that costy's enjoy! (laughing) I thought they used to get on Ketamin but I was wrong what they were actually doing was going on epic drunks, the like of which the JBC have never seen. I spoke to a man who had been in their kitchen on a Monday morning after like a whole weekend of all night techno & pissing it up and there was still vodka in the fridge Monday morning. But like only because there had been so many..so they were nice, but we got Kosovo Albanians now so, yeah they probably think I'm pretty weird yeah! (laughing)... come on I'd stick out like a sore thumb in Albania wouldn't I?
When you played the shows in 2000, when you (Max) joined back up with Pat and Owen (Jones- Drummer in the first solid line up of the JBC in '84) joined up, did that feel like the JBC was back together where they belong or was it just a bunch of old mates having a laugh ?
Pat: Bit of both really.
Max: Yes, it was a bit of both, it was certainly one of the best of all the tours I've done that was the second most fun I've had.
Pat: Which one was that, that 2000 one in America?
Max: Yeah, I'm talking... the long one we did.
Pat: Yeah, with Dave and the guys, yeah the east coast one, yeah we did have some fun on that actually..yeah. I had a bit of a panic attack on that one, but I... I liked best..my favourite of all the tours since we got back together, in fact you know me and Max have been doing this since '99... nine nine ninety nine... we went over to play in L.A and we had Dave (J) and Kev (Haskins) with... and the next day, no the the day after, eleven September '99 the Valentine Bomber arrived... the boy Steve, the American Taliban himself. He's just, he's a genius I just love him and errm... I must say his first gig in San Francisco he wasn't that clever but he's got really clever, and that for me..yeah when we went on tour the next.. I guess he was fully established alright but I still really enjoyed that '99 tour up the west coast. I'm just happier up the west coast these days.
Max: I think that's probably the one I mean actually (all laughs)
Max: (Still in fits of laughter) oh Jesus, the other one.. we did a lot of shit like Iowa, no-one turning up at all.
Pat: No we were like doing some really pointless gigs cos, like what we'd try to say ever since Majorca is... alright.... we sort of exist we're not like competing or anything but yeah we're there. But we only wanna go and play in places where someone asks us specifically to come so we know it will be a pleasant day out, but our mate in New York, David, got a bit carried away and although he got us loads of fantastic pleasant gigs he also threw in three or four which I guess he thought would make money but they were in places where the Jazz Butcher has never played. Didn't play last time and aint playing this time.
Max: Wont play again.
Pat: No, we played in Iowa City to eleven people and one of those people had driven 350 miles and was on acid and the other 10 couldn't give a fuck except that he wouldn't stop talking to them. He was so exited and he was on acid and he was just raving, he gave me some acid but I never took em.
Max: Well they obviously worked!
Pat: Ain't you glad I didn't take those talky acids!..cos if it had worked on me like it worked on him..Christ!
How big were you?
Pat: Six foot four!... what do you mean in America or what..?
No, not necessarily America but Germany, Holland... you seemed to tour pretty extensively during the mid to late 80's..
Pat: Well yeah, we were... certainly I don't know how the others felt really but I was really keen to just be like a live gigging band because I like the lifestyle.
What sort of audience size would you... compared to the UK say? Particularly in... probably Hamburg?
Pat: Well you know there's weird things, I mean in 1986 we played in Reading to 750 people, and like London, Jazz Butcher would regularly get like 500 plus, and if we'd go to Hamburg, well okay, well maybe we'd get like a 1000 maybe, or if we went to L.A maybe we'd get a 1000 or Chicago but it wasn't that much bigger really. You think of a bunch of young lads on their way up playing the Astoria headline well we never got bigger than that anywhere..you know.
Did that annoy you?
Pat: No, no I really don't know, I mean basically we kind of... the first line up I think me and Peter and Owen and fucking Dave and then Graham Its like.... when we started I mean we were just playing the pub like tonight, you know just playing the pub exactly like tonight in fact, Its like a bloody time capsule that isn't it? but errm you know when you get into playing live and that even the little level that we got to playing big theatres or like putting records out that was freaking us out because we'd gone into that totally unprepared we didn't know what the rules were, or whether there should be any rules or how we were gonna cope as people I mean you know..
Max: Yeah, everyone goes into it unprepared though.
Pat: That's what I loved about the '88 line up when we put that together, we had this mad meeting when we were all pissed in a hotel room and wrote the laws, so we didn't know each other very well, so we wrote these idiot laws, and that was it, it was almost like then we were sorted.
Max: It pisses me off to some extent because its made my, you know my life is full of sitting in front of a computer... doing stuff I don't really wanna do and err, you know I just made a new album but, I hadn't made an album for fifteen years and if things had turned out differently... you know I might have probably made several more... and well who knows and I'll never know anyway, so yeah to that extent....
Pat: But at the end of the day if we didn't get any bigger it's only because people didn't like us.
Max: Yeah, exactly, well yeah..
You could put that as part of it but I mean it's not all of it is it?
Pat: Well, I mean there was the breaks and I we never paid anyone a thousand quid a week to put us in the NME, you know we never had a publicist or any of that, in fact I rather famously fucked up our first meeting with a publicist in epic style by simple virtue of being on magic mushrooms and not liking Depeche Mode... (laughs-all) Yeah I probably didn't do our reputation in Epso circles any good that night. But Shaun from Microdisney, High Llama's as he is now he was with me and he was on them magic mushrooms too and he agreed with me, unfortunately the big publicist's girlfriend loved Depeche Mode as though they were brothers... was it Tim somebody... or no that's the bloke who rant the London office.
The interviews about finished actually.
Pat: That's good actually because I was about to say something unbelievably disgraceful about Depeche Mode...
Max: No, no... (laughing)
Oh! well we'll just leave it running for another minute then, come on!
Pat: No,I'm gonna fucking button my lip man.
Come on say something outrageous, you got another five seconds!......
Special thanks to Max Eider & Pat Fish and to Richard and the Saab 77 boys for allowing a total stranger into their house.
*The new Max Eider album entitled: Hotel Figueroa is available now on Vinyl Japan, featured musical guests on the record are amongst others; Pat Fish, Owen Jones and David J. Catalogue number ASKCD134SG